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Welcome to the Village pump copyright section

This Wikimedia Commons page is used for general discussions relating to copyright and license issues, and for discussions relating to specific files' copyright issues. Discussions relating to specific copyright policies should take place on the talk page of the policy, but may be advertised here. Recent sections with no replies for 7 days and sections tagged with {{section resolved|1=~~~~}} may be archived; for old discussions, see the archives.

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Shortest, standard and language-agnostic license statement for social media posts

Hi! I started a discussion elsewhere about what would be the shortest, standard and language-agnostic license statement for social media posts that we as Wikimedia Commons community would feel comfortable enough with. I was suggested to move the discussion over here:

I'm interested in providing simple ways for people to share their photos to Wikimedia Commons. In particular, I'm interested in ways how they can share their Instagram posts. I have already read this, this, this and this and found them all very interesting and useful.

What do you think may be the shortest text they may add to their post that acceptably communicates their will to release it under a CC license? I'm trying to find something as short, standard and language-agnostic as possible, as I think something like that may (1) make it easier for authors to add it, (2) make it easier for everyone to search such freely-licensed content on Instagram, and (3) make it easier for us to confirm (even automatically) that the post has been licensed appropriately.

Ideally, I think a hashtag such as #CC_BY_SA_4_0 would meet all the criteria above. Do you think this would be clear and unambiguous enough? It does not include a link to the license, but the examples provided here don't include them either and seem to be OK.

Consider also this previous thread for additional context.

Maybe we could come up with some guideline or policy? Maybe something like Commons:Flickr files? And maybe update Commons:License review and Commons:Where is the license on various sites? accordingly? Diegodlh (talk) 20:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

"I (insert name here) do Hereby release my work under (insert free license here)." in the caption. The image still has to be within scope. All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 21:15, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I would say that e.g. simply adding "CC BY-SA 4.0" to a photo is already enough. Gnom (talk) 07:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Think there needs to be some statement of who took the photograph. A hashtag or licence mention could also mean that they're reposting a CC-licenced image they found online, and (wrongly) believe that it's enough to mention the licence type, without naming the original photographer. (eg. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bn2EqKxlmHi, which looks more like someone using a free stock photo.) Belbury (talk) 15:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I've been thinking about a guideline on Commons similar to that on Wikipedia, but to extend the guidelines to include publicists and agents. Of course we would have to call it Commons:Publicists, Agents, and You (COM:PAY). 😅 Bastique ^{☎ let's talk!} 21:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

com:PAY should be the paid editor page. All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 23:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I've been working on permissions a lot in the last few months, and I'm pessimistic that short, standardized, and language-agnostic attainable, if we also care that permissions obtained via the process are robust and ethical. Considering a few different elements of this:

• the license part is easy -- via a hashtag as you suggest
• we also need (as already stated by Belbury) a statement that the person posting the image owns it or is otherwise authorized to license it. This is vital, but not language-agnostic. It *could* also take the form of a set of hashtags in different languages. #MyOwnPhoto #MaProprePhoto #MeinEigenesFoto
• our email template also makes it clear to people that the decision is irrevocable and describes how the image might be used. I think this is ethically important, and don't see any easy way to express acknowledgement of this concisely and language-agnostically.

So how's this for an idea? We could have a system where people who want to make their social media photos usable on the Commons could sign some acknowledgements, register their social media account, and receive a token in return. For example, after I register my Instagram handle, and acknowledge that I promise only to tag my own work and understand the implications of what I'm doing, and select a license, I get a token "WGE57EF7". From then on, anything I post from my registered handle with the hashtag #WGE57EF7 may be used on the Commons under the license I chose. The registered social media account would not necessarily have to be publicly identified with a Wikimedia account. Thoughts? --Rlandmann (talk) 14:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

License reviews of media sourced from now-dead links

Hello,

I tried to review some licenses of uploads in the huge backload of Youtube sourced files. The YT link is dead, archived versions are available. But I did not see a visible license mention on the page. The uploader provided a screenshot of the HTML code of the archived page showing a hint to a CC license. Indeed, for this example, archived here, there is this code to be found at line 618 in the archive:

<a href="https://archive.md/o/Spt91/https://www.youtube.com/t/creative_commons" style="font-size:100%;background-color: transparent; cursor:pointer;text-decoration:none;white-space:nowrap;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);border-width: 0px; border-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border-color: white; " target="_blank">Creative Commons Attribution license (reuse allowed)</a>

Would that be sufficient to pass the review? Are we from the community of license reviewers supposed to check source code pages for licensing info? Can we trust the archiving techniques to reproduce faithfully the license information? Just asking to remove a bit of uncertainty for me and for learning. Regards, Grand-Duc (talk) 18:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Grand-Duc yes I think we can pass files based on info on an archive page. I made a post at Commons:Village_pump#Almost_400k_files_need_license_review about what to do with old files that are no longer online. --MGA73 (talk) 16:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

GODL-India & X (Twitter)

Hello guys. From the past few days I am seeing an increase in number of files upload under GODL-India where source is some or other Official Twitter handle of various agencies under Govt of India. This includes PMO, ministries, armed forces and others. Can someone clarify if files imported from Twitter are allowed? Bcoz as far as I understand there is nowhere stated that files published there falls under GODL. It is never published like that. Pinging @Yann who too said that we don't have permission for files coming from official social media handles of different agencies of the Indian government. Please correct me if I am wrong. ShaanSengupta^Talk 17:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I think we should not accept files from any social media, including Twitter. Yann (talk) 17:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Yann. Anything from Facebook is an automatic speedy for me. (On reflection, It does seem that burden of proof has shifted from the up loader/keep voters to the person nominating for deletion/deletionists.) All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 18:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

On that point@Alachuckthebuck I would like to ping @King of Hearts for his input. Bcoz in past I nominated some files taken from Twitter uploaded under GODL. He advised against speedy and told me to go through DR. I would love to hear them. ShaanSengupta^Talk 10:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

If there is a possibility that the file is under a free license, then go for a regular DR, but we still need either a source from a government website, or a permission via VRT. Yann (talk) 17:06, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Facebook and Twitter are platforms, so being hosted on those websites says nothing about the copyright status of such images (for example, US government agencies may post images there). In general, I just treat them as any other website and make decisions on a case-by-case basis. @Alachuckthebuck: The burden of proof is absolutely on the deletion tagger in the case of speedy deletion. If the tagger is not sure, then they can raise any reasonable suspicion at DR, and then the burden of proof shifts to the uploader. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 17:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for weighing in and clarifying burden of proof. The main reason we don't like facebook is they remove all EXIF data from photos, and they don't have a mechanism for releasing work under a free license on their site. Additonally, an issue with the license terms in meta's TOS causes all photos uploaded to the site to not be free, but it's rendered moot by the prior point. For our purposes, almost anything above TOO uploaded to Facebook is unfree. All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 17:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@Alachuckthebuck: " For our purposes, almost anything above TOO uploaded to Facebook is unfree." I believe that is false, and if you believe it is true I would like to see you cite policy to that effect. Some things that seem to me like obvious counterexamples:

• A well-known person or organization places an image or a set of images on a public-facing Facebook post and says explicitly that they release this material under an appropriate free license (e.g. CC-BY 4.0).
• The work is obviously old enough to be public domain (e.g. a Facebook post would be a perfectly acceptable source for a painting by Winslow Homer; we don't really care where it came from).

And, no, Meta's terms do not make content on Facebook unfree. They grant Meta a license to reuse the materials; that in no way interferes with granting other licenses. - Jmabel ! talk 19:49, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@Jmabel That's why I said almost. Those are definitely exceptions to the rule. But the vast majority of files from Facebook that get uploaded to commons aren't in scope and/or unfree (I have probably tagged 350 copyvios from Facebook in the last 6 months) . Your counterpoints are perfectly valid, and I wish they happened more often. All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 21:24, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• Yann & King of Hearts going for DR instead of Speedy is when you are unsure about the licence. Here the issue is different completely. How can a file which mentions X (Twitter) as a source come under GODL-India? Even if it is free we need to cite the source which says so. We have never recieved permission which states that images coming from X or any other social media website even if from official govt handles are covered under GODL. Comparing it to US Federal copyright law doesn't make sense to me. These are Indian Govt works. And the only way we can use it here is when it is uploaded on govt websites under that license. ShaanSengupta^Talk 05:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

  GODL-India because its from Indian Gov account. Platform could be any. Be it website, Twitter, Facebook, PIB, Koo etc. Its not which platform the images are published, but who is publishing it. In this case the Govt of India. Mifiin (talk) 06:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

  Please show where in the licence it is mentioned that it can used through any platforms. Learn COM:Licensing first. ShaanSengupta^Talk 08:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there is censorship in Wikipedia or Govt account being open in any platforms. So as long as they are not censored by Wikipedia, and are listed as Govt accounts, then its good to go. Some of the arguments like "increase in number of uploads" etc is absurd and should not have been brought in. And sad part is that Admins went for removal and literally approved censorship of images from govt accounts. I would request that the Admins restore those images. Thank you.Mifiin (talk) 06:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Firstly this is not Wikipedia. This is a sister project of the WMF. And we are not censored. But WMF is very strict regarding copyvios. Removing a blatant copyright violation isn't censorship but just the right things to do. If @you think that the community was wrong in deleting those files, go an file an undeletion request. It will be dealt by someone uninvolved. ShaanSengupta^Talk 08:24, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Yann, @King of Hearts & @Túrelio if you could plz deal with this. You can explain this better than I can. Also plz care to see this thread on my talk page to see what Mifiin says. Please don't bring in Admins. They have no clue about most of the things and will delete what you point to them. Probably did not even check or consult anyone. It just shows they are not for Commons. Thank you. ShaanSengupta^Talk 08:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Mifiin: Social media, including Twitter/X, are not reliable sources. We need some evidence that the pictures are taken by government employees, and publish under the GODL. This can only be done on a government website. Yann (talk) 08:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Yann in any case, we have too many images coming from social media accounts of Philippine government sites, that are blanketly tagged with {{PD-PhilippinesGov}}. The Indian case may also be the case of alleged "government images" from social media accounts of government agencies, even if many of the social media account administrators of Philippine government socmed pages are contractual employees. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contributions) 09:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Files from Wikimapia

Hi, How reliable is the license for files from Wikimapia? This concerns among others, File:Киевская правда.jpg, a small and poor quality file without EXIF. Yann (talk) 17:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

No answer, so Commons:Deletion requests/File:Киевская правда.jpg. Yann (talk) 09:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Visual art copyright - Publication & Reproductions Q

Hi y'all -- This is possibly a very rudimentary question, so I apologize if I'm asking for help on something super basic. But I wanted to get clarification on the publication requirements for copyright under U.S. law. I was formerly under the impression that for a work of visual art (2-dimensional, i.e. painting, drawing, etc.) to be considered published, it needed to be reproduced visually in a publication, whether that's a serial like a magazine, as numbered prints, or even in the form of a postcard. But earlier this year I asked this forum about a specific instance of a reproduction of a painting being published without copyright, and it was explained to me that technically that reproduction didn't count as publication of the underlying painting because it was not high-quality enough to include all the details of the painting.

Completely unrelated to that earlier question, I stumbled on the file talk page for Picasso's painting Les Demoiselles d'Avignon - hosted in full resolution directly on English Wikipedia - and was really intrigued by the (now very old) discussion there. It seems editors on Wikipedia came to the conclusion that a black-and-white, fairly low quality reproduction in a magazine of Picasso's painting in the early 20th century counted as publication, meaning the painting is in the public domain.

I'm struggling to square these differing conclusions. Carl Lindberg stated in his response to my earlier query that "only the expression in those distributed copies was without notice, and only that expression lost its copyright protection," meaning reproductions of visual art only count as partial publication of the underlying artwork, unless the reproduction is mechanically identical enough to capture all the visual detail. But editors at Wikipedia seem to think that this reproduction of Picasso's painting constituted publication of the underlying work. Does anyone have any insights here? I have to think the editors on Wikipedia just weren't totally informed, but the Picasso painting in question is like, universally considered one of his most important, so I'm kind of surprised his estate/gallery haven't tried to prove it's actually copyrighted in the U.S. 19h00s (talk) 21:22, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@19h00s: All of this if very murky, because U.S. copyright law of that era was simply not written with one-off works of art in mind. There was no statute law clarifying what constituted publication of such works, and all we have to go on is case law. I think Carl's answer is entirely reasonable. A low-res black-and-white reproduction is a derivative work. Under the old pre-Berne U.S. regime of copyright law, if that were done without copyright notice, it would probably not mean that the underlying work automatically passed into the public domain. I'm not as sure whether, if done with copyright notice, it would start the clock ticking on the 95 years of protection after publication. But that is likely to be moot, because at the time public exhibition was generally counted as publication.

I would also say that the Wikipedia editors were probably wrong about that particular line of logic, but Les Demoiselles d'Avignon was exhibited in 1914, so under that era's standard that probably counted as publication.

Again, though: none of this is "hard and fast." We are in a murky area. - Jmabel ! talk 04:49, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

This is super helpful, thank you! Especially good to know that this is a somewhat murky area of the law. One last question -- do you know when the standard changed from exhibition to publication?

And to be clear, I definitely wasn't doubting Carl's explanation or expertise, I was just struggling to square it with the conclusion Wikipedia editors came to. Really appreciate your help! Thanks again. 19h00s (talk) 12:53, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I suspect Carl can do a better job than I of saying the exact dates when what changed. He is definitely more of an expert than I am. - Jmabel ! talk 19:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

There is more information at Commons:Public art and copyrights in the US. The 1909 US copyright law did not have a definition of "publication", so courts had to come up with their own. There was a 1907 ruling that declared that a public exhibition where copying was strictly prohibited was not publication, but hinted that exhibition that allowed copying could be (which was later part of a 1960s Picasso statue ruling in Chicago, when it came to exhibition of a miniature version, plus pamphlets with photos of it, which was ruled to be published even before the full-size version was made -- the full-size version had no additional expression over the miniature). Thus, we take art permanently put up in public before 1978 as published. Temporary indoor exhibitions are murkier. The law that went into effect in 1978 did have a definition of publication, so that was more explicit that simply being in public could not be publication, so the situation changed after that. But, simply offering to sell a work to the general public is also publication, even today. Given the murky situation with things like paintings, we tend to assume that a work was published around the time it was created, and the publication question is more of a theoretical doubt. That is unless there is documentation or other indication that a work remained with the artist for a long time, i.e. only came to light after death, or the heirs did something with it. Or photographic negatives from a photographer's estate, where we have no idea if the original was published or not. Some indication that it could have truly remained unpublished for a long time -- that can change things. Or if a possible copyright owner can provided additional details, that may change things. It can be a community decision what exactly amounts to "significant doubt" per COM:PRP in cases like that -- there are very few bright lines. Carl Lindberg (talk) 02:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Related file: File:Aspects of twentieth century painting, 1963.pdf. This is a US catalog of various works of art. Is it OK here, or should it be moved to the English Wikipedia? Yann (talk) 09:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

That appears to be published without a copyright notice. Any expression original to that publication would be public domain originally. If that could serve to put any of the included paintings into the public domain, even if published before, that's a bit harder. The law did allow for a "relative few" to be published without becoming public domain -- court cases I've heard about put the number between 1 and 2 percent. Relying on that gets a big dodgier, since you'd have to see how often and how widely they were published otherwise. Most likely, this was not the major publication for those paintings. Either way, that definitely would not make the country of origin the US if the paintings were first published in other countries. So, you'd have to do an analysis on each painting, using the law in the country of origin (and see if restored by the URAA). It makes the paintings published, certainly, but current copyright status may be harder to determine, and you'd probably have to do on on a lot of them. With a quick glance there were many old ones that could be OK, but also several that could well still be under copyright, in either the US or the country of origin. Carl Lindberg (talk) 02:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Carl Lindberg: I uploaded this file (and others) specifically to show that images of these works of art were published in USA at a certain date. It would be surprising to me if that put the works of art in the public domain, but I expect that at least the images in this publication to be in the public domain. And that these could be used to illustrate these works of art in Wikipedia. A bit like a free picture of a statue in a FOP-allowed country. The statue itself is not free, but the image is. Yann (talk) 09:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

It certainly makes them published, yes. The law does say that if "the notice has been omitted from no more than a relatively small number of copies" then copyright is not lost.[1] Under the older law, the practice per the Compendium similarly did say if the great bulk of the published copies of a work bore an appropriate notice, but that the notice was accidentally omitted from a very few of the published copies, registration may be made. If a considerable number of copies were distributed, or the entire first edition (even if small) lacked notice, then copyright was lost. The compendium also says that Works by foreign authors first published before June 18, 1959 will be considered for registration even if the notice is defective or lacking, though they would send a warning letter. I think that is the date they published some rules in the Federal Register; there were some earlier court cases about foreign works not losing copyright due to lack of notice on the original work, though the Universal Copyright Convention included the concept of a notice by that point. But even if this publication did inject these (or at least the expression seen here) into the public domain at the time, the URAA happened later, and could have restored any foreign work. So it's the URAA that would mostly matter. Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

File:Charles Henry Alston, The Family, 1955 1 15 18 -whitneymuseum (26123979297).jpg

Hi, We have a free license for the picture, but what about the painting? Yann (talk) 17:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@Yann: is there any reason to believe it had a copyright notice? In 1955 in the U.S., it would have needed one to be copyrighted if published. - Jmabel ! talk 19:58, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it may lack a copyright notice, but where is the evidence? Or do we assume that all US paintings prior to 1978 are in the public domain due to lack of notice unless proved otherwise? I am fine with either way, but we can't have it both ways. Yann (talk) 20:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

If 1955 is the effective publication date, copyright would have had to be renewed in 1983 (give or take a year). That's pretty straightforward to determine. - Jmabel ! talk 01:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

• When and where was it first exhibited to the public? --Rlandmann (talk) 06:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

File:Mandelbrot set fractal zoom.webm

Hello,

I came across this file while tackling the Youtube review backlog. I'm a bit at a loss, here. The visuals are fine (the video license shows for that). The uploader also tried to check the status for the background music, and it does not look too bad, too: it's apparently also under a license that could be allowed here, on Commons. Well, it lacks attribution, but that'll be an easy fix. But the presumed music composer wrote individualized licensing terms that could be read here, and it could be borderline not free enough for us. Quote (somewhat typographically fixed):

"Things you can’t do with this music: Use it without attributing or accrediting it. Re-sell it (in part or in whole) directly or in-directly. Distribute, re-distribute, rent, sell, lease, sub-lease, or otherwise transfer any of this music except as woven into a **creative project,[...]"

This may be akin to a "No Derivative" stipulation and henceforth forbidden. Please advise! Regards, Grand-Duc (talk) 02:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

• "Re-sell it (in part or in whole) directly or in-directly" amounts to non-commercial, so we can't use the music. It should be easy to strip the music out and leave it silent, or to replace the music with something unencumbered? --Rlandmann (talk) 08:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

• This could be done with MKVToolNix GUI. There you can shoot out the audio channel --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 20:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Copyvio File:Whitcomb marion.jpg improper nomination closure

The prior closure on Commons:Deletion requests/File:Whitcomb marion.jpg was improper. It is described as photographed in 1951.

While technicality in user Bedivere's nomination may not have been perfect, it should have been deleted.

Uploader could not have been the photographer, because per their own disclosure on their profile, they were born in 1953. en:User:Greghenderson2006

They also specified the author as "unknown".

This being family album photo, it was likely never published and uploader did not furnish copyright registration or evidence of publication. Given this situation, I believe the presumption of family photos not having been published unless shown otherwise is correct.

Per Commons:Hirtle Chart, when the photographer is unknown, unpublished photos are in copyright for 120 years after creation. Greghenderson2006 can't release someone else's work willy nilly like this. (this is work in the US State of California)

Two prior discussions on family photo matters agree:

• Commons:Village_pump/Copyright/Archive/2013/11#Family_Photo_Albums_Copyright
• Commons:Village_pump/Copyright/Archive/2023/05#Family_photograph

So, I believe the closure with ruling to keep was improper. Graywalls (talk) 13:43, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

If the photo was taken by a family member and never published, the uploader seems like they could have inherited the copyright, and licensed it. If it was taken by someone outside the family and given to them, that actually could have constituted publication. The Compendium does mention: Giving away copies of a photograph without further restriction constitutes publication of that work. If there was no copyright notice in that situation, then copyright was lost. I am assuming this is a US work. The current claim on the work is that the uploader owns an inherited copyright, and licensed it. I'm not sure there is reason to not assume good faith on that score. While yes it may still be under copyright for 120 years from creation, if this was the first publication, that copyright is licensed freely. Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

If it was taken by a family member, the author wouldn't be "unknown". As is rather common knowledge, the photographer retains wedding photos. The copyright is not the client's unless specifically said so in the contract. "seems like they could have" is enough for using the photo on someone's family tree website, but not enough for our purpose since the photo has to be usable for all purposes, including commercial use.

if someone wanted to include photos like this for profit making books, this could create an issue involving photographer/studios, and publishers. Graywalls (talk) 14:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The copyright of wedding photos was far murkier in the day. Since 1978 it's more clear, but this is earlier than that. Court cases went both ways then (or three ways even). If it's a wedding photographer, you could argue all kinds of things (including PD status as published without notice). Or a commissioned work where the common-law copyright was implicitly transferred without being published (meaning the family did own the copyright and is now licensed. (Many museums claim stuff like that.) Or maybe a claim that the wedding photographer still owns it -- though frankly that is probably the least likely. 01:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clindberg (talk • contribs)

@Clindberg: , but if it isn't indicated so in our COM:Hirtle Chart, we shouldn't start making our own novel interpretation. Family photos can be presumed NOT published, unless shown ton contrary, and it's copyrighted unless it's been 120 years from creation if the photographer is not known. If the photographer is known, it's 70 years after their DEATH, not from when the photo was created. I think we should stick to this, unless modified into our chart. Graywalls (talk) 00:25, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The Hirtle chart is for basic copyright durations, not thorny issues like what was the copyright situation for commissioned works prior to 1978 or questions about what "publication" means. Yes it's fine to presume that family photographs are unpublished, but along with that you also assume the family owns the copyright and can license them. If a photo from outside the family got in there, you have to explain how it got there without being published, which actually can be pretty hard. That is hard evidence of copies leaving the control of the original copyright owner (unless you believe that the common law copyright was transferred and remained unpublished, in which case the family still owns that copyright, and can license it.) Carl Lindberg (talk) 03:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@Gestumblindi and Jmabel: , I see you two are still quite active and have participated in one of the discussions in the past. Do you have any thoughts on the situation on hand here? Graywalls (talk) 20:41, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Commenter Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) and closing admin IronGargoyle appear to have accepted Greghenderson2006's assertion that this was a previously unpublished photo and that he was the heir to the intellectual property rights. I suppose someone could relitigate that, but why would anyone? Greghenderson2006 is certainly an active enough user here that he knows what it means to make such an assertion and what he is potentially opening himself to by way of litigation if it is false. We have someone saying plausibly that they own the rights and are offering a license; we are making the usual assumption of good faith in the absence of evidence to the contrary. I might have asked a few questions they didn't ask, but I was in no way involved in that DR, and I'm not sure why I was pinged here. - Jmabel ! talk 01:06, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

That commenter, with a history of ongoing copyright issues. The issue for which they're no longer allowed to edit on en.wiki, so I do feel uncertain about their analysis. Graywalls (talk) 07:37, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

But that was not the closing admin, nor the uploader. - Jmabel ! talk 23:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Music in silent movies

Is there a copyright reason why silent movies like File:The Circus (1928) by Charlie Chaplin (restored version).webm or File:The Kid (1921).webm don't have any music in them? Mika1h (talk) 13:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

As a silent film, there would have been no soundtrack. There may well have been music played by live musicians alongside, but it would not have been part of the recording. If there are videos on the net with added sound, then yes, the copyright of that music and recording would have to be determined as well, as it would not be from the original. The US copyright involving sound recording is fairly complicated and can last longer than 95 years -- see {{PD-US-record}}. We would need to know what the sound recording was and when it came from. Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The Circus file page says the source is the Criterion Blu-ray. Criterion advertises the release as "featuring an original score by Chaplin". I assume this score is copyrighted and can't be included with Commons upload? --Mika1h (talk) 14:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

If that is the score from the 1969 re-release, then unless there was no copyright notice on that re-release, it will remain under copyright until at least 2065 and probably 2067 (as it may have been released first separately as a sound recording as well). Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Mika1h: Not only do we have to consider the copyright of the composer on the score, but we must also consider the copyrights of the performers, recorders, publishing companies, etc.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 14:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The soundtracks on those releases are new recordings. Even if the score is in the public domain, the new recordings are not. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 22:16, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

GFDL license update

In case anyone would like to comment there is a DR at Commons:Deletion requests/File:Material.jpg about the update from GFDL to Cc-by-sa-3.0 on old uploads. MGA73 (talk) 16:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Several TOO questions

Hi, I just want to verify/know if the following are above or below the threshold of originality in the United States:

1. This album cover of the Russian rock band Kino's album Gruppa krovi. It is based on this poster.
2. The book cover of Weike Wang's 2017 novel Chemistry.
3. The cover of Eric Storm's 2024 book Nationalism.
4. This scan of Frances Ellen Watkins Harper's poetry collection Forest Leaves. I'm concerned that it might be too 3D to be considered a "slavish copy"; see especially page 14 in the PDF.

Thanks, prospectprospekt (talk) 22:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

1. The texture of the graphic plus the font make this definitely above TOO in russia.
2. Unsure, as the atom is probably more than simple shapes.
3. Defnitly not, as the text warp and the color used to represent a flag make this above ToO.
4. Probably not, but I don't know for sure as Commons:Copyright rules by territory/United States doesn't mention scans of books.

All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 22:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

On (4) do we know the date of that printing? Fair chance it is an expired copyright. - Jmabel ! talk 23:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I see, your concern is the scan. I doubt that slightly inept scanning and stains on the original give you a copyright. - Jmabel ! talk 23:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. The intent of whoever made the scan was clearly to digitize the book, not to make an artistic statement. Omphalographer (talk) 04:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

(1) is so similar to Kazimir Malevich's poster for Doktor Mabuse der Spieler that I doubt it could possibly be copyrighted in its own right. - Jmabel ! talk

• Prospectprospekt Frances Ellen Watkins Harper's Forest Leaves appears to have been published between 1843 and 1853, additionally having died in 1911 her works are in the public domain. Ww2censor (talk) 00:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

So 4 is defnitly good, 2 and 3 are not, 1 is probably OK. Because it's Russian copyright law, I'm not too worried abut #1. All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 06:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Eric Storm's 2024 Nationalism is probably OK in USA, but not if it is a UK edition. Yann (talk) 09:06, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

My view just about TOO-US (ignoring Russia and UK):

1. Probably below TOO-US. The cover is text plus some lines and circles. The texture is not simple, but I do not believe it reaches the bar. If it does, then the copyright would be thin -- anybody could substitute their own random texture.
2. Below TOO-US. The atom is a common symbol and is made of dots and ellipses. The heart for one electron dot is a nice touch, but the heart is a common figure. The girl's body is a common figure found on restrooms. I do not see enough originality in the arrangement of common symbols.
3. Below TOO-US. The cover is text and a line. Coloring the text does not help the originality case. Putting text on a curve to imply a flag is a nice touch, but I do not think the idea of doing that is original.
4. The book is above TOO-US but has aged into the public domain. The copy is below TOO-US. The stains and image distortions may be unique, but they are accidental. The skill and judgment were aimed at making a good copy of the pamphlet.

Glrx (talk) 15:45, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

My guesses (for the US only; other countries can have different standards) --

1. Probably above. None of the elements are copyrightable, but if the selection and arrangement is complex enough, that can be a copyright as well. Not entirely confident but that may be enough elements and just enough non-obvious arrangement to get a copyright. However, any copyright would be in that Doctor Mabuse one -- this cover seems to just be a slight variation on that without adding any new expression really.
2. I don't think any of the elements are copyrightable -- they are common symbols or slight variations thereof. There are only two or three real elements though, so kind of hard to get an arrangement copyright on that. The placement of a heart on the atomic symbol is interesting, but not sure that's enough. Seems more like a slogan -- which can be novel or clever, but not enough expression for a copyright.
3. Don't think that is copyrightable.
4. The ornaments in the edges of the title page would be copyrightable, but of course are long out of copyright. If that is a scanner, don't think so. If those are photographs of a book lying on a table... maybe. Even if a copyrightable photo was not the intent, it could still be the result, since it's only the expression contained in the final work which matters (regardless of intent). Of course just cropping out the edge parts so just the pages are left would remove that issue. Carl Lindberg (talk) 05:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

For 4, could the argument be made that the edge parts are de minimis? prospectprospekt (talk) 07:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but that's moot in this case, as copyright is expired. All the Best -- Chuck ^Talk 01:25, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Curious case: non-US sound recordings

Upon reading this, a question struck my mind. Are the U.S. terms applicable to non-U.S. sound recordings, like those from the Philippines? Uruguay Round Agreements Act already complicates works like public monuments, old photos, and several other works of non-US countries; is the sound recording modernization act of 2018 also governing non-U.S. sound recordings? JWilz12345 (Talk|Contributions) 01:34, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I am sure that RIAA would like to think so.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 01:41, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Copyright Office Circular 38b says "Although sound recordings fixed before 1972 were not then protected by federal copyright, those sound recordings will receive the remainder of the term they would have received had they been protected by such copyright when published. For example, a sound recording published in 1925 will be protected until 2020." Unless they were in the public domain in their source nation, they'll get 95 years. The Music Modernization Act doesn't mention foreign works; I'd assume it applies to all of them, or at least all of them restored by the URAA.--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

> Are the U.S. terms applicable to non-U.S. sound recordings, like those from the Philippines?

Yes. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 04:00, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@D. Benjamin Miller do the terms also encompass works already in PD in the Philippines etc.? Or, just like URAA, only affects works that were still in copyright as of the 2018 law? JWilz12345 (Talk|Contributions) 04:23, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, those terms encompass all sound recordings fixed before February 15, 1972. Maybe you should read the law (starting on page 54/3728 of this PDF). D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 04:29, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for inputs. Perhaps will share these facts to the FB group Philippine Wikimedia Kapihan Network (the FB group of w:en:Wikipedia:Tambayan Philippines), to give them attention. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contributions) 05:15, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Doing your own interpretation of the law is always a little sketchy. I think there's at least a case that Congress didn't intend to change the status of foreign works left in the public domain after the URAA.--Prosfilaes (talk) 18:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@Prosfilaes Point taken, but I don't think this is supported by the text of the actual statute, nor by some external principles. Here is an article about the subject (not written by me), for your reading pleasure. To make things clear, for @JWilz12345 too, we can go over a bit of the history.

1. In the US, there are both federal and state copyright laws. (State copyright laws incorporate common law copyright.) Federal copyright law preempts state copyright law wherever federal law creates a right equivalent to one that exists within state law — only the federal law applies. (State copyright laws now mostly don't matter, because the Copyright Act of 1976 preempted state laws with respect to unpublished works (which was the area in which state copyright law was most important — but that's a different subject.)
2. Until February 15, 1972, US federal copyright law did not apply in any way to sound recordings. Only state law applied. States often gave a perpetual copyright in sound recordings (though some states modified this). # In 1971, Congress passed a law which made sound recordings subject to federal law, but only those which were made on February 15, 1972, and later. Any recording made before February 15, 1972, was subject only to state copyright law. The law passed at that time provided that state law should not be preempted for any sound recording made before that date until February 15, 2047 (extended to 2067 with the CTEA in 1998).
3. In 1994, the URAA was passed, which provided a new federal copyright for "restored works," including works which were not in the public domain in the source country on the URAA date, and where "[were]" in the public domain in the United States due to […] lack of subject matter protection in the case of sound recordings fixed before February 15, 1972." The term of copyright is "the remainder of the term of copyright that the work would have otherwise been granted in the United States if the work never entered the public domain in the United States." The sensible interpretation of this is to treat eligible foreign recordings as published works at the time of their publication abroad, and to extend to them (accordingly) copyright protection for 95 years from that publication.
4. In 2018, the MMA/CLASSICS Act was passed, which provided for the preemption of state copyright law for sound recordings made before February 15, 1972. The CLASSICS Act does not actually make pre-1972 sound recordings subject to the same copyright regime as normal works (as the URAA did for eligible foreign recordings). Instead, there is a special (17 USC § 1401) set of provisions defining both what uses are unauthorized and what the terms of protection are. Notably, the term of protection is for not only a flat 95 years, but a longer period (taking into account the transition period based on date of publication).
5. With the CLASSICS Act, state law on use of recordings was finally preempted. Accordingly, 17 USC § 301 (c), which previously read "With respect to sound recordings fixed before February 15, 1972, any rights or remedies under the common law or statutes of any State shall not be annulled or limited by this title until February 15, 2067. The preemptive provisions of subsection (a) shall apply to any such rights and remedies pertaining to any cause of action arising from undertakings commenced on and after February 15, 2067. Notwithstanding the provisions of section 303, no sound recording fixed before February 15, 1972, shall be subject to copyright under this title before, on, or after February 15, 2067," was changed to read "Notwithstanding the provisions of section 303, and in accordance with chapter 14, no sound recording fixed before February 15, 1972, shall be subject to copyright under this title. With respect to sound recordings fixed before February 15, 1972, the preemptive provisions of subsection (a) shall apply to activities that are commenced on and after the date of enactment of the Classics Protection and Access Act. Nothing in this subsection may be construed to affirm or negate the preemption of rights and remedies pertaining to any cause of action arising from the nonsubscription broadcast transmission of sound recordings under the common law or statutes of any State for activities that do not qualify as covered activities under chapter 14 undertaken during the period between the date of enactment of the Classics Protection and Access Act and the date on which the term of prohibition on unauthorized acts under section 1401(a)(2) expires for such sound recordings. Any potential preemption of rights and remedies related to such activities undertaken during that period shall apply in all respects as it did the day before the date of enactment of the Classics Protection and Access Act."

Now, there are some problematic aspects of how this is written. In particular, the URAA's applicability to pre-1972 sound recordings is a bit odd, since I don't think it is quite accurate to say that pre-1972 sound recordings were really "in the public domain in the United States" at the time of the URAA's coming into effect, which is one of the requirements to be a "restored work" to begin with. But since subject-matter eligibility is defined to include those recordings, they have to assimilated to the copyright scheme somehow, and the 95-year term seems to be the way that makes the most sense. The question is (as addressed in the paper), whether, for restored works which are pre-1972 sound recordings, protection is given:

• According to 17 USC § 1401 (Unauthorized use of pre-1972 sound recordings) only, overriding the provisions of 17 USC § 104A (Copyright in restored works)
• According to 17 USC § 104A (Copyright in restored works) only, with those restored foreign works already eligible for federal copyright being excluded from eligibility for 17 USC § 1401 protection, despite no indication in the text of the newer 17 USC § 1401 that there is any such exclusion
• According to both, with such works both having a federal copyright (lasting 95 years) under § 104A as well as protection under § 1401.

I think there is a legitimate debate to be had there as to what provisions are really meant to be applicable. Since § 1401's remedies for unauthorized use are almost identical to § 104A's for infringement, the question really is one of term (i.e., whether or not these recordings should be protected for a term exceeding 95 years). Since the WTO/TRIPS agreements require national treatment (i.e., no country may provide preferential protection to domestic sound recordings over foreign ones), I think it's pretty clear that § 1401's terms need to apply to foreign recordings (whether instead of or on top of § 104A's provisions, I cannot say). Ochoa agrees (in the paper I linked above) that finding that only § 104A's terms apply is the least likely option for a court to pick.

But, more importantly, we must not ignore the bounds of § 104A to begin with. § 104A only applies to foreign works whose protection in the source country hadn't already expired by the restoration date (generally January 1, 1996). Any work whose source-country protection had already expired could not be a restored work to begin with. In the case of books, musical compositions, etc., US federal copyright law had already preempted state copyright law, and so items which had already entered the public domain in their source countries remained in the public domain in the US (and were not subject to state copyright law). Foreign recordings which were no longer protected in the source country would not receive a federal copyright either. But there is no reason to believe that these recordings, which were outside of the scope of "restored works," were supposed to be removed from state protection either. Instead, we need to split things up:

• Recorded before February 15, 1972, and PD in source country on URAA date — State law only preempted with CLASSICS Act, and subject to protection under CLASSICS Act.
• Recorded before February 15, 1972, and not PD in source country on URAA date — State law preempted with URAA, and might be subject to only URAA protection (for 95 years), or perhaps CLASSICS Act protection (for longer).

Since almost all non-US countries provided only for a relatively short period of protection for sound recordings when the URAA came into effect — 20 to 50 years — any sound recording which had the ability to become a restored work, even if only protected for 95 years from publication, would still not be in the public domain now. For example, a recording from 1960, which was still under protection in its home country (with a 50-year term), and which could thus be a "restored work," is protected until either 2056 (under the URAA alone) or February 15, 2067 (if the CLASSICS Act's provisions apply). But it will be decades until the answer becomes relevant. Any recording made in, say, 1925 (which would be protected under the CLASSICS Act despite being over 95 years old) wouldn't have been subject to the URAA anyway due to ineligibility for restoration due to a lack of protection in the source country. I'm not aware of any countries which had even a 70-year term of protection for sound recordings in 1996.

D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 20:38, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@D. Benjamin Miller: Thank you for that detailed examination. I had to deal with this subject matter almost two years ago in Commons:Deletion requests/File:Conservet Deus su Re.ogg, and it was really complicated. --Rosenzweig τ 09:24, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Free images of (presumably) trade marked/protected characters

Hi Commons. This comes from a comment (on en:Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors) that we have a photo of Oscar The Grouch from Sesame Street on he front page of English Wikipedia. File:Carroll Spinney and Oscar the Grouch 2014.jpg. It is on Commons and is cc-by. Commons has a category of images Category:Oscar the Grouch. File:LBJ Foundation DIG14086-069 (34650875314).jpg is PD and on Commons. These aren't unrestricted though, are they? I'd like your collective advice as I suspect these aren't actually that free images. Thanks. Secretlondon (talk) 14:59, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Relevant page: Commons:Character copyrights. Yann (talk) 21:51, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Sesame Street is not on there but I am going to presume these are still in copyright. Secretlondon (talk) 15:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

American Women quarter dollar coins by the United States Mint

A recent series of United States Mint Quarters found here:Category:United States quarters and highlighted here: en:American Women quarters. I just want to confirm that the "American Women" quarters are all acceptable here on the commons, like the "50 States" quarters here: 50 State Quarters. -- Ooligan (talk) 19:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Coat of arms files

I'm not sure about the licensing of File:Coat of Arms of Obispo Maximo Ephraim Fajutagana.jpg or File:Coat of Arms of Obispo Maximo Ephraim Fajutagana.png. Both uploaders claim the file to be their own work, but I'm not so sure about that. Commons does often lost coat of arms files in which the en:emblazon (i.e. the visual representation) is clearly the own work of the uploader as explained in COM:COA because it's the emblazon, not the en:blazon (i.e. the written definition), that's generally what's considered eligible for copyright protection. Anyone can, in principle, create their own emblazon based on a blazon and upload that to Commons, but uploading someone else's emblazon requires their COM:CONSENT, unless the emblazon has already been released under an acceptable license or is PD. These two files seem like COM:NETCOPYVIOs, possibly coming from here, but I'm interested in hearing what others might think. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Rina Palenkova

Hello, I would like to upload a photo to illustrate the article Suicide of Renata Kambolina. I can't decide which license is suitable for this. The photo belongs to a deceased person, no authorship has been claimed and its primary source is the author's page in a social network. What license can be suitable for this image? I would be grateful for your help and advice YillowsGiblles (talk) 23:24, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

You cannot magically create a license for an image that is not licensed. Only the owner of the copyright can grant a license. Someone (or some entity) would be the heir to the deceased person's intellectual property and they are the only one who can grant a license.

It is possible that such an image might be allowable on the English-language Wikipedia under their policy on non-free content. That would not involve Commons (this site) in any way. - Jmabel ! talk 23:45, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Images used in a CC by 4.0 document

Hello, I would like to upload some images of living Izithunzi silvicola to illustrate the genus article on Wikipedia with an image of the living habitus. They are part of this guide which is listed as CC 4.0, but I am not sure if that license includes the images used within the guide. In particular, the photos in question are on page 8, by Esther vd Westhuizen and David Wildeman. The photographs are taken by someone other than the authors of the guide, and have been used in it with permission, but I do not know if that permission extends to others who wish to use the images. I cannot find them posted elsewhere online with an image search or by searching for the photographer's work.

Do these images have the same license as the rest of the guide, and are they thus acceptable to use, or not? Thank you in advance, Mediocre.marsupial (talk) 00:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

If the authors of the photographs are different than the author of the guide itself, we would need some evidence that the images are properly licensed. It is fully possible that someone can grant permission for an image to be used in a particular work without agreeing to the terms of the CC license, even if (for example) the text of that work is released under a CC license by the text's author. In light of the COM:PRP, we'd need more than what has been described here. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:00, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I've just done a bit more reading and it seems that the images are from the SANSA Virtual Museum, a website part of the South African National Survey of Arachnida and run by the Agricultural Research Council which is part of the South African Government. The photographers upload these images and allow them to be published in field guides, taxonomic papers (including in paywalled journals), and in books. This seems like it would be listed under CC by 4.0?

In an article that uses images taken from this database, the figure caption states that the photographers retain copyright of their images though, so does that mean that they aren't under CC?

Edit: Images from these guides have been uploaded to Commons without issue before: here and here but by a different photographer, the photograph similarly didn't have a clearly stated license in the document but was still okay to use. Would uploading the Izithunzi silvicola images be okay under that precedent? Mediocre.marsupial (talk) 01:20, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

@Mediocre.marsupial "This seems like it would be listed under CC by 4.0?" you cannot make an assumption like this. A license needs to be explicitly granted. Licenses are legal contracts, you can't say "this looks kinda like that other thing". They might still be licensed like CC-by-4.0 or be allowed as some type of other permission type, but proof is needed. As for the images by Peter Web, it seems here photographer and author of the paper are one and the same, so I guess the idea that these 'might' be CC-by-sa 4.0 is slightly stronger, but personally I'd like to see even better proof of those two. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't see where Peter Webb is listed as an author of that paper, he is not on the list of authors as part of the citation on page 2. Fair point that I can't make an assumption like that, I'm just wondering where I could actually find the license for these images then? Mediocre.marsupial (talk) 22:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

You need to contact the photographers and ask them. The authors of the guide might be able to help put you in contact if you can't find them by yourself. --Rlandmann (talk) 23:44, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Land Rover logo

I'm wondering why the Land Rover logos are uploaded locally (e.g. here and here) but there is a Land Rover logos category with files like this:

• 

-- Carnby (talk) 17:40, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

We certainly don't have any way to prevent en-wiki from uploading files locally. This question would better be asked on the relevant sister project(s).

Even under UK's tight TOO the Land Rover logo as such is probably below the threshold. The Jaguar one is not, but I don't know how old it is. - Jmabel ! talk 20:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

The company was founded in 1935, so unless the jaguar design is much older, we will have to delete it. Gnom (talk) 09:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Jmabel The fact that the Land Rover logo was upload locally made me think it was considered unacceptable for Commons. Weird, because this logo seems to be {{PD-simple}} o {{PD-textlogo}} in my opinion.-- Carnby (talk) 10:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Carnby: What makes you think the person who did the local upload had expertise about copyright? - Jmabel ! talk 18:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

My further comments on the transcluded file are at Commons:Deletion requests/File:Jaguar Land Rover 2022.svg. - Jmabel ! talk 18:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

File:FenerbahceKadınVoleybolTakimi 1960larda.jpg

It looks like File:FenerbahceKadınVoleybolTakimi 1960larda.jpg could be a case of an uploader mistaking physical possession of a photo for meaning they are the copyright holder of the photo. This photo seems to be signed by each of the players pictured in it and appears to be quite old; so, the "own work" claim seems very questionable at best. The team en:Fenerbahçe S.K. (women's volleyball) is from Turkey and COM:Turkey states that states Turkey allows works to be protected by copyright for 70 years p.m.a.; so, if this photo was taken in 1960 and the person who took died that same year, the photo would be under copyright protection until January 1, 2031 at the very least. Even if it was signed on March 20, 2021 (the date given in the file's description), the original photo without any signatures would still be under copyright protection until at least 2031. So, I'm not seeing how Commons can keep this, at least not a licensed, but perhaps someone else feels differently. Finally, just going to add that all of the licensing related notifications on the uploader's user talk page isn't really a good sign and seems to be another indication that the claim of "own work" for this image is invalid. -- Marchjuly (talk) 12:46, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Copyright guide in uploading Philippine works to Commons

I made a draft copyright guide similar to the Hirtle chart, but putting into consideration the copyright laws of both the Philippines and the United States to serve as a guide on uploading to Commons. Not sure about its accuracy, but does the guide help? --Aristorkle (talk) 13:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)